Re: Much of this advice is true for any car...

Dropped my car off at the dealer for its 60,000 service today.
There was a 2004 550 SE with 14,000 miles and the owner was told the bad news, the IMS failed. The motor is toast.
My mechanic and service adviser both told me that these cars need to be driven on a regular basis.
Probably not a good day for that owner as it is well out of warranty and he is on his own with the blown motor to the tune of over 20 grand.
I don't even know if he could get a replacement 550SE motor as it was a special version.

My 1997 has a slight vacuum leak on the AOS. Since it is original I decided to replace it after 16 years of use.
It is hard to comprehend that I have had this car for 16 years.
I figured I'm on borrowed time and don't want to risk the AOS letting loose on the freeway.
I don't think the dealer has ever seen a M96 AOS this old before.
My car also threw a CEL and needs a new air injector. Thought it would be an O2 sensor. Other than that, a new set of plugs, air filter and an oil change.
My motor is dry and I don't even need new spark plug tubes as they are not cracked.

Saw the new Cayman S up close and personal. The car looks huge compared to my 1997 and 325 hp!
I really like the looks and proportions of this car. I did not think I would like the rear lights from pictures I saw but they integrate and work well. The side scoops look like Ferrari or Lamborghini styling to me giving the car a sexy Italian flair to it. I think the cars have too clutter with badges on the rear. I would like maybe just Porsche or Cayman S on the back.
It was stated that cars are taking up to 8 months to order. Is that right?

Its under 10 years old (or just about 10 years)

Its not been modified

Sounds like he qualifies.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Guess I've been off the board for a long time.
Porsche is finally settling IMS claims even after warranty?
I pick up my car tomorrow and will ask who is going to foot the bill.
Didn't that Dennis guy from Pa have a 550SE that went through two IMS failures?
Wonder if the settlement is retroactive.

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

[forums.rennlist.com]

Another notes i read indicates that the very car noted in this htread happens to be n an excluded VIN range. I cannto confirm or deny.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

...that dennisa guy only went through one on the 550 SE. But he had another failure on an '02 2.7. The notion that the car at your dealership wasn't driven enough is pure poppycock. They would probably say that mine was driven too much, 62,000 miles in 4 years.

Quote
dennisafrompa
....pure poppycock.

Yeah, there's a lot of that going around when it comes to supposed IMS failures .

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

In the case of the 550SE in the shop it was not a supposed IMS failure. Motor failure was diagnosed by the Master Tech and attributed to the IMS.

I'll find out today if the settlement covers a new motor for the owner from Porsche and how much he will be out of pocket.

The Tech remark about driving the car was not about that particular car, the 550SE, the Tech's point was it is much better to drive these cars than to let them sit idle and he specifically mentioned seal drying and cracking resulting in oil leaks.

An IMS failure after 60,000 miles in four years is a significantly higher amount of annual miles driven (nearly 3X) than what the Boxster reliability surveys in another thread states is an average of 5500 miles a year. A Porsche being driven 15,000 miles a year is a car that is being well used versus average.

Obviously a real IMS failure...

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

You'll have to excuse Gary, he's full of Kool Aid and doesn't believe any of this happened. If it did it was everyone's fault except those folks in Zuffenhausen!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2013 05:10PM by dennisafrompa. (view changes)

Long history of whinny driver abuse....even after PCNA took care of him

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

That does not excuse a design that requires special treatment, but the correlation exists, and there is also an explanation ( splash lubrication) that goes along with it.

Not saying it in any way justifies the design, but it may explain why one car and not another, or why one earlier than another...

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

...at a cost of $3100. Also I was a 3 time new Boxster customer.

However you seem to think the IMS failures are not legit. Both mine were diagnosed by tear down as directed by PCNA and confirmed as such.

I commented on this thread because some one mentioned I had 2 failures on my 550 SE which I did not. I also commented because of the notion that lack of use is the problem. You my friend just seem to want to bash those of us who have had mechanical issues.

Love your Boxster.... great, so did I, but don't belittle and personally attack me because I dare to mention my experience.

I've only had 2 engine failures on cars I've owned and they were both water cooled Porsches. I didn't make that up.

nothing i said!

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Nope not you.

Quote
dennisafrompa
...at a cost of $3100. You my friend just seem to want to bash those of us who have had mechanical issues. WRONG

Love your Boxster.... great, so did I, but don't belittle and personally attack me because I dare to mention my experience. WRONG, again

I've always said that many claims are justified, but I doubt yours'. If you find that a personal attack, I can't help you.

Driving'em like you stole them, ignoring break in procedures, tracking without adequate preparations, and God knows what else is, at best suspicious, as is two blown engines in a short period of time, and evolving self servicing recall about those engine inspections.

Incessant whining to PCNA to get $ out of them, and hanging around here for years after your experience just to bring it up at every opportunity is far from helpful, IMHO.

We go through this every time you publicly wail for no productive purpose.

Let it go, already Dennis.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

I didn't know there was a correlation (even if small) between driving style and IMS failures. If that is the case, then I am doing my engine a favor, but where is that data? I just haven't seen it posted here (or I missed it).

An idea: if there is such a correlation, I'd conjecture that there are fewer IMS failures in cars driven in Germany by Germans as they like to and are allowed to cruise at higher rpms (and I'd bet most know better than to lug the engine than many drivers here). Oh no, I hope I am not going to get flamed for stereotyping! Too bad we can't get those numbers from Porsche.

usage between USA and German (and EU/UK) cars.

USA drivers average slower speeds than their counterparts in say Germany. USA drivers spend on average more time stopped thus the engines idle more. Most USA drivers do not have access to 93 octane gasoline. Ambient temperatures for most regions in the USA are far higher on average than in Germany.

However, I'm not convinced usage plays that big of a role if any in IMSB failures. The failures look to be more due to some manufacturing defect and one not say on the order of something as basic as the make up of the steel used in the bearing, its heat treatment.

"Most USA drivers do not have access to 93 octane gasoline"

MarcW, I agree about a defect in design, but it doesn't hurt to learn, if that is possible, if there is a factor or fix that keeps our IMSs going. This has probably been discussed here, but along with all of the other variable that you mention in comparing USA vs. German experiences, one big one might be our required use of ethynol mixed with gas. There has been quite a bit written about the importance of "burning water off" from oil in the system. I think I read here that ethynol increases the moisture content of gas. If the Germans (other countries too), don't use ethynol and their failure rate is lower, that would be informative. If there was a causal link to engine failure, we could "petition our government for a redress of grievances" to get non-ethynol gas. And a little more power!

It has to do with ETOH's (Ethanol) ability to mix/dissolve with water. You may recall that "oil and water don't mix" - neither do gasoline and water, since one is polar and the other non-polar. ETOH on the other hand mixes, thus retaining water in the gas rather than allowing it to boil off quickly. Now, i'll admit i'm not entirely clear on why this is always bad. It seems that having undissolved droplets or a film of water is also bad. But clearly evidence says that ETOH causes problems, and its due to water. In fact, Porsche had a TSB out on it, whcih not, i do not have. It was either printed or summarized in Panorama years ago.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2013 08:17AM by grant. (view changes)

gasoline raises the exhaust gas temperature under some operating conditions as the DME has to retard ignition timing to avoid detonation.

While I detest ethanol in gasoline and the way it came about, the resulting drop in fuel economy, the reduction in energy in a gallon of gasoline, the whole stinking hypocrisy of ethanol on gasoline, I do no believe ethanol in gasoline accounts for any increase in water in the oil.

While it is true ethanol and water do mix, there is just not that much water in gasoline and water does not accumulate in modern vehicle gasoline tanks like it did years ago. Plastic fuel tanks, and much better fuel tank ventilation account for some of this reduction. Additionally I suspect better control of water in fuel from the refiner to the gas station also plays a role.

Based on my observations Porsche engines take a long time to come up to temperature. They are exposed to conditions that are favorable to water contamination of the oil. The engines do not get all that hot nor stay that hot for very long.

I recall from my time back in the midwest there were only 2 weeks in the spring and 2 weeks in the fall that were nice enough consistently to not require me to use the A/C. All other times it was needed to keep the heat (and humidity.... oh the humidity) at bay, or keep me from freezing. As a result of the A/C the radiator fans were on and this worked to keep the engine coolant temperature down. Thus the oil never got really hot because the engine never got really hot. By "hot" I mean the coolant never got above 212F. Heck it barely broke the 190F - 195F threshold for months at a time.

The coolant not getting hot and staying hot can lead to a build up of water in the oil. The one and only oil analysis I did to my Boxster's oil found 7% water in 4K mile oil. This analysis was done during the dead of winter. It prompted me to monitor coolant temperature and thus I observed just how cold these engines can run. I could do nothing about the engine's operating temperature but I could do something about the oil and then and there decided to switch to a 5K mile oil/filter service.

This I think more than anything has helped my Boxster avoid the IMS bearing failure. As I have touched upon before it is my belief the majority of engine "wear" is not due to metal to metal contact but due to the effects of corrosion from acids that build up in the oil. This corrosion attacks the metal weakens it at its surface and then the violence of the oil plucks these loosened grains away. This is wear.

Now if the acid in the oil can attack the metal it can certainly attack other things in the engine it comes into contact with. Gaskets, seals, and of course one very important seal is at the IMS bearing. You know the rest of the story.

I wonder if the 981 thermostat is set to run 20 degrees warmer.

There's one that controls the block's coolant temperature, another that controls the heads' coolant temperature and a 3rd for everything else (cabin heat I guess). There are 3 valves under DME control used to keep or help keep the various circuits at the desired temperature. I am attempting to get more details on this but so far have been unable to. Next week my 996 goes in for an oil/filter service and I'll be able to speak to the techs directly and maybe come away with more details.

Oh, the Cayenne and Panamera will get the same 3 circuit cooling system upgrade at the next model make over.

At the track yesterday, the indicated water temp never changed from 200deg. F; the oil temp ranged from a high of 250 deg. F but mostly stayer in the 240ish range.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2013 12:57PM by Laz. (view changes)

I understood your point, btu was responding to Bobtesa's comment about Ethanol.

Thanks also for elaborating, since your opinion agrees with mine, that the culprit is not ETOH, but the normal production of water as a by-product of combustion, slow warm up, and light use.

Apparently we also agree on the politics of ethanol, which i will not go further on :-)

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

A manufacturing defect is when something is produced or assembled in the factory outside of specifications or tolerances during the manufacturing process.
The designs in the shaft covers and RMS led to the grease packed IMS bearing becoming contaminated by oil and other liquids that washed out the grease packed in the race causing the bearing to overheat and fail under some circumstances which are still debated and not fully known except by Porsche.
The IMS was designed to exist in an oil free environment. When IMS started failing in the early cars there was a strong correlation between a RMS leak and eventual failing of the IMS. Porsche made several modifications with TSBs during the run of the M96 motor series to address these various weaknesses in the design of the RMS and IMS.
This weakness in design which caused a percentage of IMS to fail in M96 motors was eliminated from the new motors. No more IMS.

Agreed--these bearings are probably fine for the environment that their designer's anticipated application; the M96 engine was probably not it.

1. i have never heard of a track car having the failure
2. my car, tracked and driven hard, had a solid IMS when i removed it
3. 3 local porsche specialists say the same thing
4. an un-named specialists associated with this board says the same thing
5. LN says the same thing

Now we also know this:

6. The problem with the bearing is that it is sealed, sits above the normal oil level, and that the sealing method does not hold up to oil and extended high heat. We also know that on nearly every IMS bearing the seal deteriorates or fails completely. Once the seal fails the grease washes out. Every bearing i have seen shows this.

Now you have two situations - a mostly dry bearing, or by some method oil gets in. Since many continue to work, while others rapidly fail, i think it is very reasonable to conclude that the difference must be lubrication. And the only differences can be:

1. condition of oil (important, but unlikely to be the main issue)
2. splash. And splash comes from fast-moving parts

If we follow this logic, once the seal begins to fail you have some cars that sit a lot and get dry, and when driven, dont get splashed. They would tend to deteriorate fast. You would have other cars with similarly failed seals, but that are driven a lot, dont get as dry, and get splashed a lot. Track cars are likely at the high end of this spectrum.

QED

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

This is my understanding of the root cause of Boxster IMS failures.

When bearing seals degrade, small amounts of oil enter the bearing and mix with the bearing grease. When this happens, the oil-grease mixture loses the ability to lubricate adequately and the bearings fail from friction.

How does this relate to driving style. The answer is indirectly. Seals degrade when they sit in contaminated oil for extended periods. This happens to all cars if the oil isn't changed frequently. It also happens to low mileage cars because the lower halfs of the bearing seals sit in acid / moisture ladened oil for long periods when the car is garaged for extended periods. It can also happen to more frequently driven cars that take short trips where the moisture doesn't get a chance to evaporate because the oil doesn't get hot enough for a long enough period of time. For these reasons, low mileage cars regardless of oil change frequency and cars with long oil change intervals tend to experience more IMS failures.

IMHO the best advice for extending the IMS bearing life is this. Change oil frequently (say every 5000 miles or every year whichever comes sooner). Drive the car often at operating temperature for 30 minute periods or longer. Don't let the engine lug or run at low rpms to avoid high side loading of the bearings.

BTW: the ceramic retrofit bearings avoid the OEM bearing problems in two ways. One, ceramic bearing just last longer than steel ones. Two, ceramic bearings like the LN Retrofit are unsealed and don't face the mixed lubrication problem that the OEM bearing with a degraded seal does



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2013 12:13PM by thom4782. (view changes)

"IMHO the best advice for extending the IMS bearing life is this. Change oil frequently (say every 5000 miles or every year whichever comes sooner). Drive the car often at operating temperature for 30 minute periods or longer. Don't let the engine lug or run at low rpms to avoid high side loading of the bearings."

--> good practice for ANY car

"BTW: the ceramic retrofit bearings avoid the OEM bearing problems in two ways. One, ceramic bearing just last longer than steel ones. Two, ceramic bearings like the LN Retrofit are unsealed and don't face the mixed lubrication problem that the OEM bearing with a degraded seal does"

--> yes.

"When bearing seals degrade, small amounts of oil enter the bearing and mix with the bearing grease. When this happens, the oil-grease mixture loses the ability to lubricate adequately and the bearings fail from friction."

--> well..... the oil basically washes the grease away. If there were enough oil (even mixed with grease) there all the time it might work. I've see very little grease at all in them (not that I've personally seen all that many)

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant

"When bearing seals degrade, small amounts of oil enter the bearing and mix with the bearing grease. When this happens, the oil-grease mixture loses the ability to lubricate adequately and the bearings fail from friction."

--> well..... the oil basically washes the grease away. If there were enough oil (even mixed with grease) there all the time it might work. I've see very little grease at all in them (not that I've personally seen all that many)

Grant

Yes and no...

If the seal leakage is large so it washes out the grease completely AND the bearing suffered no damage during the washout period, then the bearing may last a long time. If the leak is small and the grease doesn't get washed out rapidly or completely,, then lubrication suffers and the bearing begins spinning towards failure.

See my previous posts on IMS failures and lubrication.

Ed B
Bearing Engineer

My neighbor got one of the first 996 cars from the factory in the summer of 1998. When it arrived at the port, the RMS was leaking and it was held. The car had 17 miles on it and was two weeks old.
The car was delayed for weeks until Porsche installed a new motor at the port and released it.
My neighbor who also owned a 1997 993 was very concerned about being the first to own one of the new water cooled motors and was not happy that the motor and Vin numbers no longer matched the build sheet on his new car. He accepted the car from the dealer anyway.

The RMS leaking issue was affecting cars from the get go because it was a bad design or an insufficient part for the job or not inserted correctly at the factory or a combination of these things. RMS fixes were addressed by Porsche several times over the years until they got the right seal and installation procedures correct including the development of a special tool to seat the seal.
Nothing an owner did or did not do to these cars caused the RMS to leak.

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Different parts, different consequences.

The confusion may step fromthe fact that the IMS bearing, which is internal to the motor, has a fiber-board seal that breaks down in hot, acidic oil and allow the sealed-in grease to escape and mix with oil. Then things go bad, sometimes rapidly, sometimes not.

RMS = rear main seal - a gasket that keeps drops from hitting your garage floor
IMS = inter-mediate shaft [bearing] - which, if it fails, your motor jumps time and is junk within seconds.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

... the RMS if it's left for an extended period of time will damage the elastometer in the dual-mass flywheel.
One flywheel: $1,000.00
Labor to install: $1,500.00
Final result: OUCH!

Moral of the story:
If the RMS drops oil on the garage floor, it's time to replace it.
At the same time you should then replavce the clutch, the IMS Bearing and oh, yes, install the TechnoFix.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

eventually possibly causing issues with the crank itself, and the transmission's pilot shaft. It might've been one or more tech people at Excellence or maybe Road & Track or Panorama.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2013 11:53AM by Laz. (view changes)