Re: You're missing the point |  |  |
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| Transmissions JackintheBoxster - 8 years ago |
Somewhere below, I think there's another prediction of the death of manual transmissions.
It may happen, certainly, but I have to say I've been hearing that manual shifting was dead for at least 30 years (CVTs?). It may be that various automatics will win, but in my experience there are substantial numbers of drivers who want to shift, and it is not just car nuts or even just men, or even older drivers. I was talking with a young (20s) woman of my acquaintance who told me that she preferred a manual and that driving with an automatic was not driving but playing a video game. Not the comparison that would have occurred to me, but pretty apt, I thought.
2001 Base, purchased in 2004, replaced engine at 130K+, RIP 2017
It may happen, certainly, but I have to say I've been hearing that manual shifting was dead for at least 30 years (CVTs?). It may be that various automatics will win, but in my experience there are substantial numbers of drivers who want to shift, and it is not just car nuts or even just men, or even older drivers. I was talking with a young (20s) woman of my acquaintance who told me that she preferred a manual and that driving with an automatic was not driving but playing a video game. Not the comparison that would have occurred to me, but pretty apt, I thought.
2001 Base, purchased in 2004, replaced engine at 130K+, RIP 2017
CarreraLicious - 8 years ago |
doesn't offer a manual transmission in the car in which you want the manual transmission you are out of luck.
Given Porsche's model line up it is being forced to offer automatics to help its overall fuel consumption and CO2 emissions numbers. As a result more and more models are coming with automatics (PDK) transmissions only.
As engines advance and become ever more powerful there is the no so small expense of updating the manual transmission or even coming with a new one to handle the increased output. At some point the cost to do this becomes unacceptable because there are too few models sold to recover the cost.
Given Porsche's model line up it is being forced to offer automatics to help its overall fuel consumption and CO2 emissions numbers. As a result more and more models are coming with automatics (PDK) transmissions only.
As engines advance and become ever more powerful there is the no so small expense of updating the manual transmission or even coming with a new one to handle the increased output. At some point the cost to do this becomes unacceptable because there are too few models sold to recover the cost.
| People may like to shift, but ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 8 years ago |
... if they are track junkies (as many Porsche owners are) then PDK is the way to go.
Even the GT4 which was offered in it's initial guise exclusively with a manual transmission will, as of the next model year, come with the faster-around-thep-track PDK version.
Personally I enjoy manual shifting, but I enjoy being faster at the track more than shifting.
Happy Shifting,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Even the GT4 which was offered in it's initial guise exclusively with a manual transmission will, as of the next model year, come with the faster-around-thep-track PDK version.
Personally I enjoy manual shifting, but I enjoy being faster at the track more than shifting.
Happy Shifting,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: People may like to shift, but ... JackintheBoxster - 8 years ago |
These are all valid reasons why some people are moving away from manual transmissions -- some people find them cumbersome in the city, etc., and, now, of course, racing-oriented drivers can do better with PDK. All of which is legitimate. My point is that some people like to shift and that some people also liked using a manual choke, shifting is an integral part of driving for them and as long as there are a certain number of people like that out there, the shifter is not likely to disappear from internal-combustion engines. I concede that it will become rarer for racing drivers who find they can cut time off their laps with a PDK.
I'm just speculating here, not drawing a red line.
I'm just speculating here, not drawing a red line.
| Re: People may like to shift, but ... MarcW - 8 years ago |
Quote
JackintheBoxster
These are all valid reasons why some people are moving away from manual transmissions -- some people find them cumbersome in the city, etc., and, now, of course, racing-oriented drivers can do better with PDK. All of which is legitimate. My point is that some people like to shift and that some people also liked using a manual choke, shifting is an integral part of driving for them and as long as there are a certain number of people like that out there, the shifter is not likely to disappear from internal-combustion engines. I concede that it will become rarer for racing drivers who find they can cut time off their laps with a PDK.
I'm just speculating here, not drawing a red line.
While some people still like to manually shift it takes a certain number people who buy manual equipped cars to sustain the manual shift option. If that number drops too low, below a threshold, retaining the manual transmission no longer becomes economically viable.
Commute times are going up. Traffic speeds are dropping. People are spending more time in their cars and driving at a slower speed. This type of driving just cries out for an automatic transmission equipped vehicle.
| Ummm...... Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - 8 years ago |
I, at 55, represent what I believe is a not-so-small demographic of enthusiasts who will always want a manual.
I grew up watching racing on Sat and Sunday, running 1:24 scale slot cars at the Buhl club and, with my HO and Aurora AFX home slots....... the kid's fantasy is sitting there going vrrrrrrrrrpthththththh vrrrhrhrhrhhrhhhhtptptptptptpp, while air shifting.... Well today, I got the cash and I am buying a manual.
I gotta believe I represent a pretty darn big market.
By the way, I just received the cooooolest T-shirt from the Chaparell (petroleum) Museum...... you must own one!!
[petroleummuseum.org] (I am so proud!!!)
And yes, I had a 1:24 scale Cox Chaparell with a wing. The wing was attached, via a small stiff wire, to the side of the motor. The motor was in a pivoted cradle and the torque, on and off, would shift the motor thus causing the wing to move...... I was cooool. I found it: [www.theoldtoyguide.com]
Peace,
Bruce in Philly
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2015 08:34PM by Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S). (view changes)
I grew up watching racing on Sat and Sunday, running 1:24 scale slot cars at the Buhl club and, with my HO and Aurora AFX home slots....... the kid's fantasy is sitting there going vrrrrrrrrrpthththththh vrrrhrhrhrhhrhhhhtptptptptptpp, while air shifting.... Well today, I got the cash and I am buying a manual.
I gotta believe I represent a pretty darn big market.
By the way, I just received the cooooolest T-shirt from the Chaparell (petroleum) Museum...... you must own one!!
[petroleummuseum.org] (I am so proud!!!)
And yes, I had a 1:24 scale Cox Chaparell with a wing. The wing was attached, via a small stiff wire, to the side of the motor. The motor was in a pivoted cradle and the torque, on and off, would shift the motor thus causing the wing to move...... I was cooool. I found it: [www.theoldtoyguide.com]
Peace,
Bruce in Philly
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2015 08:34PM by Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S). (view changes)
| Re: Transmissions db997S - 8 years ago |
The problem with all prior predictions regarding the death of manuals, was technology. You just cannot compare "manual/automatics" from 10 years ago, let alone 30, to today's PDK-type systems. One of my Boxsters was a Tip. My current 997 is a PDK. Light years difference in the two. Also, you have the mandate to increase fule mileage. The computers are such on the new "manual/autos" that they beat the fuel economy of the pure manuals. That's really two nails in the coffin. A third, is performance. The PDK-systems simply out gun the manuals in the performance arena. Nail number three. Eventually, it will also come down to economics. To save money, I think car companies will pick one transimssion for economy of scale. Forth, and final nail.
| You're missing the point JackintheBoxster - 8 years ago |
All of your math above makes sense, except it ignores the key element that some people buy manuals because they enjoy shifting gears as part of driving. For those for whom that's not important, automatics in all of their guises have been more attractive since their introduction in the 50s (I'm not including those half-automatics from the '40s). For a relaxing experience, automatics provided more convenience, and easier commuting and city driving from the start. As you point out below, today's PDK flavor increase mileage and provide performance. However, they do not provide the experience of going through the gears and that feeling of control, and as long as any car company's customers include a number of people who want manuals, they'd be foolish not to offer them. I think Corvette offers manual as an option, which may make my point. Car companies might pick one transmission for economy of scale unless the decide they can't afford to lose customers or prestige by eliminating clutches -- if I were in the market for a new sports car and Porsche offered no manual transmission, I would start to look at Mazda, Corvette, BMW and other brands and so would a lot of other drivers. It all depends on whether Porsche is willing to pay whatever the cost is in lost business and image -- and image is not just on race day; a lot of sports car drivers buy their vehicles so they can tool around mountain roads at 45 when the speed limit is 35 or so they can enjoy a three-hour trip out of town on secondary roads and have some fun.
| Re: You're missing the point grc0456 - 8 years ago |
Quote
JackintheBoxster
All of your math above makes sense, except it ignores the key element that some people buy manuals because they enjoy shifting gears as part of driving. For those for whom that's not important, automatics in all of their guises have been more attractive since their introduction in the 50s (I'm not including those half-automatics from the '40s). For a relaxing experience, automatics provided more convenience, and easier commuting and city driving from the start. As you point out below, today's PDK flavor increase mileage and provide performance. However, they do not provide the experience of going through the gears and that feeling of control, and as long as any car company's customers include a number of people who want manuals, they'd be foolish not to offer them. I think Corvette offers manual as an option, which may make my point. Car companies might pick one transmission for economy of scale unless the decide they can't afford to lose customers or prestige by eliminating clutches -- if I were in the market for a new sports car and Porsche offered no manual transmission, I would start to look at Mazda, Corvette, BMW and other brands and so would a lot of other drivers. It all depends on whether Porsche is willing to pay whatever the cost is in lost business and image -- and image is not just on race day; a lot of sports car drivers buy their vehicles so they can tool around mountain roads at 45 when the speed limit is 35 or so they can enjoy a three-hour trip out of town on secondary roads and have some fun.
Can I get an Amen?!!
CarreraLicious - 8 years ago |
Agreed. I actually like the PDK type trannies...they are terrific, but would not buy one on a roadster. I think a roadster should give you the full experience of the senses: top down, wind in your hair, steer, left foot clutch, right foot accelerate/brake, and right hand snicking through the gears. I don't care about the laser quick shifts of the PDK...I don't want to drive a video game all the time. Sometimes I want to feel what it's like to drive the car and take in all that's around me, and only a manual can do that for me.
Now for an M3/M4 BMW sedan/coupe or Audi S4/RS4, yeah sure- I'll take a DCT/S-tronic type tranny. It's quicker shifting, good for your traffic commute, and still offers some thrills when you want it, but for sheer simple fun, IMO, nothing's like driving a stick, even if it's slower. Another thing is that really anyone can drive PDK type tranny. Not so for the manual...it's a skill that you have to learn, and forces you to pay attention to the road. I still believe there will be some manufacturers who will offer manuals in their cars...maybe not Porsche (although in the article below, says that up to 40% of 911 buyers still prefer the manual), and if that's the case, maybe I'll have to go elsewhere for my manual.
[www.autoguide.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2015 08:04PM by boxtaboy. (view changes)
Now for an M3/M4 BMW sedan/coupe or Audi S4/RS4, yeah sure- I'll take a DCT/S-tronic type tranny. It's quicker shifting, good for your traffic commute, and still offers some thrills when you want it, but for sheer simple fun, IMO, nothing's like driving a stick, even if it's slower. Another thing is that really anyone can drive PDK type tranny. Not so for the manual...it's a skill that you have to learn, and forces you to pay attention to the road. I still believe there will be some manufacturers who will offer manuals in their cars...maybe not Porsche (although in the article below, says that up to 40% of 911 buyers still prefer the manual), and if that's the case, maybe I'll have to go elsewhere for my manual.
[www.autoguide.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2015 08:04PM by boxtaboy. (view changes)
| Re: You're missing the point db997S - 8 years ago |
True, but big business does what is best for big business. If a big segment of their customer base prefers the one kind of transmission, money being money, they'll eventually drop all others to save money. Trust me, they are doing the math, and at some point, the savings of moving to one transmission, will out weigh the loss in customers due to that decision. At some point, those two lines will cross, and when it does, the bell will toll for manuals. Heck, the outcry was huge when Porsche dropped the manual in the GT3. Did that stop them from making and selling the new one? Nope, and those buyers are the hardcore Porsche customer base--wealthy with the means to buy anything they wish. And, enough stuck with the brand to justify the move.
Quote
db997S
Did that stop them from making and selling the new one?
This is why the 911 has become a grand touring car and is just no fun anymore. It is no longer a sports car but..... they raise the price, soften it up, make it bigger, and people buy more.
There is a growing market for an inexpensive sports car. By inexpensive, I am thinking around 50K.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
CarreraLicious - 8 years ago |
Yeah, but I'd argue that pulling the manual from the GT3 made sense as it's made for the track, and on the track, for fastest lap times, a PDK makes sense. When they pull it from the regular 911s and Boxsters/Caymans, then that would stink.
[www.total911.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2015 10:30AM by boxtaboy. (view changes)
[www.total911.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2015 10:30AM by boxtaboy. (view changes)
Quote
boxtaboy
Yeah, but I'd argue that pulling the manual from the GT3 made sense as it's made for the track, and on the track, for fastest lap times, a PDK makes sense. When they pull it from the regular 911s and Boxsters/Caymans, then that would stink.
[www.total911.com]
Interesting article...... I get it... but.... People still drive these cars for fun.. even at the track. When I drove at the track, I was there to learn my car and have some fun. Lap times were not on my list of priorities... staying safe and driving properly were.
Again, I get it... but for me, and I think I represent a large market, fun is shifting. If you see the vector of progress (where it has come from and where it is going), the human is in less and less control.... just no fun. Yes, faster lap times. At some point we are just guiding a computer driven rocket around... fun for some, not for me.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
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